The Edge of Healthcare: Leadership Under Fire: Transforming Resistance into Resilience

Martin Cody: Welcome to the Edge of Healthcare, where the pulse of innovation meets the heartbeat of leadership. I’m Martin Cody, your guide through riveting conversations with the trailblazers of healthcare. Tune in to gain exclusive access to strategies, experiences, and groundbreaking solutions from influential payer and health system leaders. This isn’t just a podcast, it’s your VIP ticket to the minds shaping the future of healthcare right now. Buckle up, subscribe, and get ready to ride to the Edge of Healthcare, where lessons from leaders are ready for you to use today.

Martin Cody: Hello again everyone, and welcome to another episode of The Edge of Healthcare: Lessons from Leaders to Use Today. And we have a wonderful leader with us, and I’m impressed with everything that she’s accomplished. And we’re going to get into the hows, whys, and wheres of these accomplishments. So let me get her to introduce herself. Mary Sunahara, thank you so much for being here. Tell everybody what you do and where you reside right now.

Mary Sunahara: Absolutely. Well, thank you for having me. So I currently reside just south of Denver, Colorado. I am the director of HIM ambulatory for Intermountain Healthcare. I’ve been with Intermountain Healthcare since 2012. Intermountain Healthcare merged with SCL Health, and I was with SCL Health and then moved over to Intermountain Healthcare.

Martin Cody: Intermountain Healthcare has, in my opinion, an aura around it, and I would put it in the altitudes of the Mayo’s, the Hopkins, the MD Anderson’s, and those sorts of things to where when you hear it, you immediately take notice. And I’ve had very little exposure to Intermountain Healthcare over 30 plus years in healthcare. And I’m curious, what do you attribute that aura to?

Mary Sunahara: So I attribute that aura to, so they are based out of Utah and they were a group of originally 15 hospitals. And they were basically the Mormons donated those hospitals to another group to go ahead and manage and grow them. I feel like they really understand the needs of the community. I think that’s one of the biggest, you know, what I see from Intermountain Health. They really understand the need, and they understand how to move forward with cutting-edge healthcare. So they’re always looking at the next innovation; how to make things better; how to make things better for their community; how to make things affordable for their community. They’re truly a community-based healthcare system. And it’s wonderful.

Martin Cody: It’s refreshing too, because if someone from a leadership perspective is always looking at the next best thing, there’s bound to be some mistakes. There’s bound to be some leaps of faith and some courage because that’s the essence of leadership. You know, you have to take some risks. So how have you found over the years that, and I agree with you: they do seem to be looking at it from a community perspective. But philosophically, how have they been able to be so successful with this? And then I would also like to know why aren’t more organizations leading in that manner?

Mary Sunahara: Gosh, how have they been successful with this? So I think it’s their commitment. They have a very strong commitment to their, like I said, community. And it’s always listening to, I think, their caregivers. I think they are so invested in their caregivers along with the community, and they really include us in decision-making. They’re always coming back to us and saying, How can we do better? How can we be better?

Martin Cody: I think the caregiver investment is paramount. And it’s so funny with, in today’s day and age, with the onslaught of physician burnout, with the regulatory and compliance headaches that show no signs of slowing down, only increasing, everything seems to be getting pushed back to the physicians and the caregivers. And so that sense of value or that sense of appreciation, and it has to be authentic because the caregiver will sniff right through it; if it’s not, then it would be counterproductive. Is that, I mean, that’s an environment it sounds like that you thrive in.

Mary Sunahara: Absolutely. And I, you know, it’s so interesting because when Intermountain and SCL Health merged, I understood why we needed to merge. But you know, because I’m based in Denver, I hadn’t really been exposed to really what Intermountain Health is about. It wasn’t until I started traveling to Utah and I started going out to the clinics, going into their facilities, talking to their caregivers, that I really started to understand their commitment. And suddenly it was like, I’m all in. I am totally all in with this.

Martin Cody: And what would be one thing that you would tell people? Because everyone has this image of Utah, this image or multiple images, this idea. What one thing would you tell people that would shatter their preconceived illusions?

Mary Sunahara: They are accepting of everyone.

Martin Cody: Super cool. Very nice. And now break down for me kind of your day-to-day responsibilities.

Mary Sunahara: Sure. So I have three teams that report up to me. I have a team of systems analyst, HIM systems analyst. I have a team of HIM, what we call, document technicians. And then I also have one of the regional HIM forms teams that reports up to me. So my HIM systems analyst really their job is translating business needs into system and workflow. So we’re working with operations compliance, quality, clinical leadership, and translating their needs to a system solution. So working both between operations and information technology. So we also have responsibility for all of the incoming documentation for all of Intermountain Health clinics; so the ambulatory setting. So we are in the middle of moving Utah and Nevada onto all of the systems that previous legacy SCL health was on; so Colorado Montana region. And it’s a big undertaking. So we will be managing close to 17 million pieces of paper that come into the system.

Martin Cody: On an annual basis or?

Mary Sunahara: On an annual basis.

Martin Cody: And then you mentioned a couple of states. How big is Intermountain today?

Mary Sunahara: So Intermountain today is approximately, I do believe 33 hospitals. And if I counted correctly, we have close to 1000 clinic departments.

Martin Cody: Yeah, that’s a lot of documentation to manage.

Mary Sunahara: It’s a lot of documentation.

Martin Cody: So there’s competing initiatives and competing agendas all the time in that.

Mary Sunahara: Absolutely.

Martin Cody: Clinicians want what they deem to be the best and latest and greatest to make their lives easier. That has to come up against financial capabilities to be able to afford certain things, technical integrations, and that sort of stuff. What do you find in getting them to acquiesce on some of those needs, or to buy into a bigger picture? What do you draw upon to kind of balance all of those priorities?

Mary Sunahara: So the things that we draw upon, number one, we want to make documentation easy for them to find, and we want the documentation to be relevant to the care that they’re giving the patients, and providers really buy into that. You know, if they can’t find what they need for a patient within just, you know, maybe under 30s in the electronic health record, you know, they’re asking their Ma or nurse, Call and have them fax over that documentation to me. And it becomes very frustrating. So really it’s, you know, quickly getting documentation into the system in a very efficient manner where we’re not leaning on our clinics to do that work; it’s making it available to them; it’s making them easy for them to find.

Martin Cody: Have you had any initiatives where you embarked down a path of, let’s say, frictionless integration, where you perceived this was going to be a good thing, that it turned out to be a bad thing, and you had to pull the plug on it?

Mary Sunahara: So I can give you an example where there was a lot of friction. We did not have to pull the plug on it because we had a lot of support from clinic leadership. It was just a lot of, it was a major change. It was just an enormous change for our clinics. So we had all of our documentation coming directly into the clinics. So they were receiving all their facts documentation, and the clinics were responsible for making sure that clinic, that documentation was put into the record under 24 hours. Well, we had a lot of issues with it. I’d walk into clinics and there would be eight feet of paper sitting in a corner in the clinic or shoved into file drawers. So we moved to a process where we brought all the documentation into a central location. And then we had, which is our HIM document technicians, then worked that documentation to then get it into the record. Huge change because it included taking FTEs out of our clinics. And either, to be honest with you, we had a riff or we brought them into our central team. So we went from about, you know, anywhere from a 24-hour to maybe months turnaround time, getting that documentation in the system to 6.5 hours.

Martin Cody: Over what period of time was that transition?

Mary Sunahara: So that transition. So the initial implementation happened in 2019. I would say it took a good nine months to stabilize. So final transition to get to that 6.5 hours, I would say probably 18 months.

Martin Cody: And I think it’s fascinating because we live in a immediate gratification world. And healthcare is anything but fast from an efficiency standpoint. So from your perspective as the leader, how do you maintain, individual yourself and throughout your teams, the energy required to see this through over the long haul?

Mary Sunahara: That has been a struggle. So number one, you have to have a team that is committed to the change, and they are committed to the chaos that comes along with the change and managing through the chaos. I will say that I did have a significant amount of turnover on my analyst team with this change. They just really struggled with moving from one system to the next system or change in workflow. But I will say, I have managers that are highly committed to it; really good at what they do; and they stuck with me.

Martin Cody: Yeah, it’s a difficult balancing act because you have the needs of the system, the needs of the project juxtaposed with the human element, where as a species we are resistant to change. We, and for anybody that doesn’t believe me, wear your watch on the other arm for a day and see how much you like that. And it’s the simple things like that. So I’m always fascinated by how you’re able to motivate teams, motivate individuals, get them to give more of themselves than they themselves even recognize they’re capable.

Mary Sunahara: Yes. Well, so employee engagement is huge with that. So I will say that I currently, I round with everyone who reports up through my managers; probably every 3 to 6 months, I round with them. I think the caregivers knowing that we are committed to them helps, tremendously.

Martin Cody: And define round with them. What does that look like? I’m picturing something from the television shows in the 90s and 2000s.

Mary Sunahara: So I sit down and I meet with them one on one, and it’s their opportunity to tell me anything they want to tell me. And I, you know, typically I’m asking questions like, how can I make your job easier? How can I help? What can I do? What do you want in the future? Do you like what you do? Do you want to move into management? So it’s always focused on the caregiver. It’s always making sure they’re engaged, that we listen to them.

Martin Cody: I think that’s huge. And I probably, and I don’t want to go out on a limb here, but that could be the most challenging aspect of your job, because you have to do it in a manner that they have to believe in their cells, that this is not just lip service, that you’re just not placating them. So you have to then take their wishes, desires, wants, needs, and incorporate that into some visual, tangible results. So is that fair to say?

Mary Sunahara: That’s extremely fair to say, yes.

Martin Cody: Which is not easy. So I’m curious the skill set that you utilize to make some of those things happen.

Mary Sunahara: So first of all, I would say Intermountain provides us with a lot of leadership training, especially around caregiver engagement. And they are continually sending out surveys about every three months to make sure that our caregivers stay engaged. So as soon as I receive those caregiver results, we are looking at our engagement score. We’re looking at our engagement score. We’re looking at our well-being score, and we’re trying to figure out where we can continue to improve. So my teams do have high scores, but you can’t just sit and say, Oh, I don’t need to do anything. You have to continually be asking, What more can we do? What more can we do? So I would say that again, Intermountain Health gives us a lot of great tools for engagement. And we continue to use those tools, and they are highly successful.

Martin Cody: And are these commercially available tools or are they kind of homegrown internally within the org?

Mary Sunahara: They’re both. They’re definitely both. So I would say our survey tools are, you know, definitely an industry standard, but there’s a lot of homegrown training that we go through that is offered to all leaders.

Martin Cody: I think that’s fantastic. And I’d be curious your thoughts: if someone is not another health system, say, around the country that doesn’t have that employee engagement model, what would you advise them or what would you predict for their success?

Mary Sunahara: Well, I would say they probably have a higher turnover rate, and I think they have a much more difficult time attracting top-level caregivers.

Martin Cody: Talent. Sure.

Mary Sunahara: Talent. Yeah.

Martin Cody: And I’m always depressed by the statistics that are out there where in the latest one I heard is something to the tune of 40% of hospitals have a negative operating margin, and it’s just not sustainable economically. So, and then everybody suffers from caregivers to patients and the whole, it’s just a self-defeating cycle. How does a health system break out of that?

Mary Sunahara: So you know, when I look at where Intermountain Health is and moving from, you know, as part of being part of the merger, so honestly, they need to break out of that by using innovation and using technology and using the tools that they can find to help automate and help, you know, for example, from a physician perspective: we require them to do an awful lot of documentation and we bring so much information into our EHRs that it’s overwhelming. So what are the tools that we can give them to make that a lot less overwhelming? So obviously, one of the tools that we’re bringing in, we’re bringing in more AI. We’re bringing in, for example, I’m in the middle of reviewing technology that can help automate bringing that documentation in on the front end and pushing it to the right workflows. So we’re pushing identifying refills and pushing them to the pharmacy teams that need them, identifying referrals and pushing them directly to the team that is working on incoming referrals. So we have to use the technology to automate, to shorten the time that it takes for us to do our work and really work on decreasing those timelines.

Martin Cody: One of the things we encounter at Madaket that I’m sure you probably do as well, is you mentioned technology, and the investment in innovation is the fear that the more technology my organization gets, I’m going to be out of a job.

Mary Sunahara: Yes, exactly.

Martin Cody: So how do you combat that and how do you move that individual from that fear base, if you will, to empowerment?

Mary Sunahara: So when we moved all of our clinics off of a decentralized scanning process to a centralized process, it was technology that allowed us to do that. As part of that, our teams had to change the way they did their work, and our systems analysts were fearful that they were going to lose their jobs. And part of what I tried to do, obviously, you’re managing the change. Not only are you managing change in the clinics because they’re, you know, major change for them, but I’m changing the way the systems analysts view their roles as well. So including them in decision making, including them in the process, including them in how we design their jobs in the future, their role in the future. So we have had a huge transition. We have moved from more hands-on operational manual workflows to much more automated workflows, and using data to be able to understand how successful we are. So definitely trying to move them into this more innovative way of thinking and system solution-oriented. Do that by training; training them; giving them classes that they can take to learn more about data analysis; offering more certification. Intermountain Health has a great educational continuing ed program, offering up all of those different ways they can continue to increase their skill set. So, you know, that’s how we’ve been able to retain some of our talent, not all of it, but it’s also been how we can attract new talent.

Martin Cody: Yeah, it’s such a delicate balance and.

Mary Sunahara: It’s definitely a balance.

Martin Cody: And you look at, and whether you call them the analytical skills, the soft skills, because the soft skills don’t often get as taught as frequently as one would hope. But, you know, there’s a couple of things that come to mind here. If you’re always giving value to the organization, more often than not, they’ll find a place for you, and your role may change, and it may not be what you originally signed on for. And I always harken back to the Steve Martin philosophy, which he was applying to helping actors break into acting, and it’s the same for any industry: Be so good they can’t ignore you.

Mary Sunahara: Yes, exactly, exactly.

Martin Cody: And this again, harkens back to some age-old philosophy that may require you to go outside of your comfort zone, but that’s where the growth occurs. So getting that philosophy distilled down into an analyst sometimes who had spent years in a cubicle, for the most part, that’s a challenge. And I think it’s great that the employee engagement is so high. I think the leadership skills and education is paramount to that. So if someone is suffering from that victim or fear that they’re going to lose their job and is not taking the effort on their own with everything that Intermountain is providing them, then I don’t know if they can point a finger.

Mary Sunahara: No, they cannot. And that is one thing that I am, even right down to my hourly non-exempt technicians, I’m always asking them, How are you feeling? And they will come to me and they will say, I’m feeling nervous about the changes. And the first thing out of my mouth is: Don’t feel nervous. Don’t feel nervous, there’s always a place. And I always direct them to you know how we ca, we will map out a path for you.

Martin Cody: Yeah. And I’d be curious too: that anxiety and that nervousness depending upon an individual’s role. And since many of the roles went virtual for a lot of people, that only got heightened and accelerated.

Mary Sunahara: Yes. Well, and all my teams are virtual, by the way.

Martin Cody: Okay. And I don’t recall a lot of lot of classes in college or education on how to work virtually.

Mary Sunahara: So it’s a struggle for me sometimes.

Martin Cody: Right. Because we need that socialization, that human contact, that interaction. So how have you been able to kind of, what do you do? What tactics do you use? How do you make people feel heard?

Mary Sunahara: So again, Intermountain gives us really good tools and processes for that. So we do have a process with a daily huddle where our teams all come together. We call it a daily huddle, and we focus on everything from safety to what our daily focuses to any announcements. And if we have time at the end, there are about 15 minutes. And if we have time at the end, we’ll do a round table. And it’s everyone’s opportunity to be able to share, share thoughts, share feelings, give recognition. We are big on giving recognition. Intermountain is really big on making sure our caregivers are recognized and heard, and their accomplishments are really advertised to everyone within the organization. In addition to that, I, my managers, do a great job. They hold weekly open doors, you know, so they get on a teams meeting and it’s an open door. And everyone, anyone can join and share whatever they need to share. They can stay on for the full, you know, hour that she’s conducting her open doors, or they can just drop in for five minutes.

Martin Cody: Yeah. It’s such an interesting time with regards to the virtual aspect of it, and I think.

Mary Sunahara: It’s difficult. It is truly difficult.

Martin Cody: And there’s that balance again, of authenticity. I mean, I know I’ve been at organizations where there’s an employee of the month type of thing, and it is so superficial that everyone gets it. It has no value. In fact, it probably does more harm than good type of stuff. So how do you absolutely make certain you talked about promoting accomplishments by caregivers and others? How do you make certain that people deem that valuable versus just, you know, superficial recognition?

Mary Sunahara: So you know, I fully agree with your point about the employee of the month. So I am always asking my team, how can we, Intermountain obviously offers tools, but I’m always asking: How can I, as a leader, recognize you? Is there something I can do better? So I’m always going back to them and asking. I will say, I think one-on-ones that we have with our employees, even though it’s not a group recognition, I think the fact that we as leaders take the time to meet with them is significant for them. And then I, as a leader, know when there’s something personal going on in their life, and I am there to support them. I think that’s huge. So I think me being authentic to my employees, so when I do give them recognition, they know it’s coming from the right place. So the leader have to be authentic.

Martin Cody: Yeah. And I’m hearing a consistent theme throughout this dialogue. And it’s communication.

Mary Sunahara: Yes. Yeah. Definitely.

Martin Cody: Communication, I would even say goes so far as to say step two would be initiative. People have to take the initiative. So if you’re uncomfortable or if something’s stressing you out within the workplace and you bring it to someone’s attention. You don’t hold it inside because you’re not helping yourself. You’re not helping the unit. You’re not helping the organization. And if it falls on deaf ears, then it might not be the organization for you.

Mary Sunahara: Well, and it’s making sure that your employees know that you have a safe space for them. You know, we get together, and that’s the first thing I will say. You know, if we’re having tough conversations, crucial conversations, this is a safe space. And yeah, and I live by that. Yes, I live by that as well, so.

Martin Cody: You’re an incredibly accomplished leader. I’m beyond impressed with the wisdom that you have and have gained over the years. I’d be curious. What has been or one of the hardest lessons you’ve learned that you remember from your past?

Mary Sunahara: Oh, one of my very hardest lessons is, you know, I am a perfectionist. So I’ve always had in my mind this thought of, well, I’m always right. So I’ll admit that. I think I’m always right. It’s been tough to learn. I mean, I know I’m not always right, but in my mind, I think I am. I think one of the hardest lessons has been really learning to let go and trust that I hired the right people and put them in the right positions, and delegating and letting them go and doing their job. That’s been a hard thing for me to be able to learn and do.

Martin Cody: Any guidance on how you would help others do that who are sitting in similar situations? And I appreciate your honesty with regards to the smartest person in the room because I know there’s some physicians that usually think they’re the smartest person in the room, so.

Mary Sunahara: Oh yes. Yes, yes, definitely. I know a lot of those. So I think trusting myself. I think as a leader, you need to trust that again, that you hired the right people and that you have set them up for up for success, and that you as a leader, you are leading from a good place and letting them do their job and letting them make mistakes. It’s okay to make a mistake. We can course correct. So really making sure that they understand that I support them and it’s okay. We’re good.

Martin Cody: That’s amazing. And I am not a parent, but I think it could be analogous to being a parent where you’ve raised them and you’ve got to let them go out in the world. You just can’t shelter them. They’re going to make mistakes. It’s going to be okay. And instill in them that attitude that everything’s going to be okay, even if you do make mistakes.

Mary Sunahara: So, and this is a lesson I just, was repeated and I had to remind myself. You know, we’re in the middle of setting our 2025 KPIs. And I’ve gone back to my teams multiple times and say, No. We need to do more. We need to, you know, this isn’t enough. And I had them meet with our, you know, one of our continuous quality improvement people to review the KPI. And it was good that I asked them to do that, because the second set of eyes basically said, This is great; this is fabulous; let’s move forward with it. And I thought, you know what? That’s a good lesson for me. It doesn’t have to be perfect. In my version of perfect.

Martin Cody: Right. And I hear it often, you know, Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good enough.

Mary Sunahara: Yes, exactly. And it’s okay to go for the B. We don’t have to be perfect and go for the A. The B can be good enough.

Martin Cody: Yes, for those of us that lived on the curve and appreciated those B’s, that’s where we live. I like that.

Mary Sunahara: You know, you mentioned something about soft skills. So I wanted to go back and address, you know, the soft skill because it is definitely something that is a struggle today with the remote environment. I think soft skills, I think that is probably one of the biggest struggles with having my team all remote. We interface with our clinics, we interface with our caregivers, we interface with doctors, clinic leadership. And what I find is with being remote, we are struggling to, we almost hide a little bit, and soft skills are a struggle. Yeah, we’re not willing to get on the phone, or get on a call, or go out to the clinic in person. We seem to be doing a lot more via email and chat. And I think that is an area that has made our jobs more difficult.

Martin Cody: I think it’s made the jobs more difficult. And since it’s an area that I study, it’s made them unknowingly more difficult. And it’s especially enhanced the difficulty when people don’t turn their cameras on.

Mary Sunahara: Oh, interesting. So what I’ve noticed is, so we do require cameras to be on. I don’t make them turn them on all the time. I would say that a lot of times when we get on calls, I would say at least half the people are not on cameras. We’re not sure what the engagement is.

Martin Cody: 100%. And 85% of communication is nonverbal. So if you can’t see the individual, there’s so much communication and nuance that’s lost. And so managing around that I mean that’s a topic for a whole nother call.

Mary Sunahara: That is a topic for a whole nother call. And I’m only addressing it from, you know, as I am bringing on, I’m in the middle of growing my team. We’re going to more than double in size here pretty soon. And I think about those things as how do we continue to have engagement as a team grows rapidly. And our soft skills are, we struggle with our soft skills.

Martin Cody: Yeah, we can talk further because I’m fascinated by it. And I’m a strong believer that EQ is far more valuable than IQ.

Mary Sunahara: Yes. Oh, absolutely. 100%. Yes, I completely agree with that.

Martin Cody: Let me switch gears here. And we’re going to go to the speed round of word association. So I’m going to mention a phrase or a word and you have to tell me unfiltered, the first thing that pops into your head.

Mary Sunahara: Okay. All right.

Martin Cody: And you actually mentioned this word earlier, so I found a slight amusement in that. All right. The first word is fax machine paper.

Mary Sunahara: Paper.

Martin Cody: Good or bad, fax machines?

Mary Sunahara: Both.

Martin Cody: I’m on a crusade. Single-handedly, I think healthcare is keeping the fax industry afloat.

Mary Sunahara: Oh, they are, but I hate to say it. Physicians like fax machines. They like paper. It’s reliable. Fax machines are reliable.

Martin Cody: Well, I agree with you. I think they, this would be an interesting discussion with the physicians. I think they think they like paper. I think underlying that what they like more is the access to the information they need. And for the last century, that’s been by paper. But if they could get the information they need without a fax machine, they would be very, very happy.

Mary Sunahara: Well, they can get the information they need without a fax machine. The problem is we give them so many ways to access information in so many different systems, that it’s inefficient. Taxes are more efficient.

Martin Cody: You are running CMS for a day. What is the first thing you do?

Mary Sunahara: Wow. I don’t even think I could answer that.

Martin Cody: It’s a tough one.

Mary Sunahara: That’s overwhelming.

Martin Cody: Yeah, it’s overwhelming because of the enormity of what CMS does or the enormity of need?

Mary Sunahara: All of it. Both. I think you’re trying to balance the needs with the enormity of just the scope of CMS. So how do you, yeah, how do you balance that?

Martin Cody: You’d probably take more than a day.

Mary Sunahara: Yeah. I don’t know if I could do that.

Martin Cody: All right. Prior authorizations.

Mary Sunahara: Oh, terrible.

Martin Cody: Yeah. There seems to be 100% unanimous consent on that.

Mary Sunahara: Oh, it’s, the teams that we have to hire now just to manage prior auth. And again, you know, it’s this ongoing battle of well we have prior auth; why do I have to call you again? Why do I do I have to get prior auth again? So it’s a battle.

Martin Cody: And then lastly, if you could sit down with anybody, living or deceased, in health care and have an extended dialogue conversation with them, who is that person and what are you drinking?

Mary Sunahara: Well, I would probably be drinking ranch water.

Martin Cody: Okay.

Mary Sunahara: Honestly, you know, I’m going to say I would sit down with my dad.

Martin Cody: And why.

Mary Sunahara: My dad was a pediatric hematologist-oncologist, and he was very cutting edge for his time, which was, you know, in the 60s, 70s, and into the early 80s. He was incredibly cutting-edge. He was submitting claims to the state back in, you know, the 80s, you know, when they first went electronic. And he was one of the very first people that I know that started using more technology in health care doctor’s offices. I would want to talk to him because I, you know, as being someone who is always cutting edge, I would want to know what his thoughts are about health care today. I mean, he went through, you know, the first stages of managed care, he was there when they first tried to roll it out, and he was on board with it. Like I said, he was always on board with whatever new was coming out. So I wanted to hear from him what he thinks about health care today.

Martin Cody: Oh, that’d be a fascinating conversation.

Mary Sunahara: It would be completely fascinating conversation.

Martin Cody: I like it.

Mary Sunahara: He was so excited. He was so about making all the decisions for the patient. And, you know, a lot of it was his way or no way. And with all the bureaucracy now, what would he think?

Martin Cody: Yeah, I think he would be amazed on a couple levels. One, just how far healthcare has advanced from a technology standpoint. But I also think he’d be equally amazed at your role in healthcare and everything you’ve accomplished.

Mary Sunahara: Oh, thank you. Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah.

Martin Cody: And I want to thank you for being on the edge of healthcare. This has been incredibly insightful and fun.

Mary Sunahara: I hope so. Yeah. I really hope so.

Martin Cody: Very much appreciated. I appreciate you continually shattering the glass ceiling and bringing others with you. So thank you for that.

Mary Sunahara: Thank you.

Martin Cody: Thank you everyone for watching. And we invite you to sign up for the podcast. And just click a link and you can get these delivered directly to your inbox. And we’ll be back again soon with more leadership from the Edge of Healthcare. Take care everyone.

Martin Cody: Thanks for diving into the Edge of Healthcare with us today. I hope these insights will fuel your journey in healthcare leadership. For more details, show notes, and ways to stay plugged into the conversation, head over to MadaketHealth.com. Until next time, stay ahead of the curve with the Edge of Healthcare, where lessons from leaders are always within reach. Take care of yourselves and keep pushing the boundaries of healthcare innovation.